Curse

MaaKotka · Jan 07, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

I think scythes aoe, damage and attack speed is pretty much balanced. That aoe is so small that if you put even a small thought in you positionig it shouldn't be problem. I really don't know where you get those numbers on dervish attacks having constant 100+ damage on softies. Couple days ago I was helping my guildie to test his melandrus dervish build and while standing still and putting spirit bond on me, it triggered about 1/3 or 1/4 hit while he was auto-attacking. Scythes have very high max damage but they also have very low minimum damage so it makes it pretty balanced. I had my basic BL monk build at there.

The thing that makes dervishes so scary is grenth form and extremely powerful crippling skill harriers grasp and the fact that most defense in almost averyone's build bases on enchantments. Also the fact that staying effective dervish has to activate his enchantments quite often and thus has to stop every now and then makes kiting them easier. One big thing that I think most people forget is that to work harriers grasp has to hit moving foe so therefore while kiting dervish when you see it starts to swing his scythe, which takes its time, you should stop and avoid cripple and also lower his chance on hitting critical.

As for melandrus dervish while being extremely efficient build, I don't think it is overpowered. Atleast not much. Kiting is nice thing to know how to do it effectively, especially now when melee characters are so popular.

To the poster: Have you tried running hex heavy build with a character that can shut divert hexes monk down? Putting faintheartedness, shadow of haste and/or blurred vision on melee characters makes them pretty much useless. Also the fact that divert hexes is most teams' hex counter should make hexes to stay pretty long. Just a thought.

Just my 2 cents playing actively monk in GvG guild. Sorry for my bad english

Seamus Finn · Jan 07, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by A User Name

@ finn
And since when can a SF ele not do the same thing? I meant that which would you rather have the x secs that a monk spends on his arse during a spike or the pressure of the KD or the slight extra damage from the scythe and AoE it depends on the team build your running.

A searing flame ele... a 60 armor level target at VoD can AoE bound up archers as well! Good job. Unfortunately, the SF ele has to be running a terribly fragile character that wastes over half their bar and nearly all their energy to pose this threat while the dervish can.. just... press space bar?

Also, sorry but I would rather just bsurge the hammer war after he's pulled up all his adren for the antiquated adren spike you are thinking of than devoting the same broken elite and a whole character to just sitting on a dervish the whole game. And that's assuming it's not a melandru's. I mean, I guess it does depend on "your build," but I like the builds that win and in the current metagame they have dervishes.

A User Name · Jan 07, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

@ flinn again
Umm apparently you have never run a SF. Yes it is true that is a fragile character you certainly don't need all there energy to pose a threat, which is why people farm(ed) the ladder with it. You don't see 5 dervishes (usually) but you do see SF's like mad. I wonder why?
Also there are many builds that can kill the archers quickly at VoD so what?
Also since when does a auto attack dervish without any skills as flinn has said does more damage to archers at VoD than a SF with all his energy?
Btw B-surge works on dervishes too... and they usually trigger the AoE effect of b-surge as well. Meaning unless you are Avatar of meladuru then guess what, you're still blinded.
And thanks for taking literally what was just being used as an example. I mearly was comparing uses of a hammer vs. scythe due to the similar swing times. "My build" was only trying to provide an example nothing more.
Also I never said that dervishes weren't good. They are a strong class that can bring a lot to the table, but are they overpowered? No. They still are shutdown by warrior hate and are more fragile than warriors in the aspect of armor and complete energy dependence. Do I like bringing them in GvG? Of course I do since they can add alot to a team, but so can any other class with the right builds.
Anyway its not worth it to continue arguing. And anyway its my opinion only.

Seamus Finn · Jan 07, 2007, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by A User Name

@ flinn again
Umm apparently you have never run a SF. Yes it is true that is a fragile character you certainly don't need all there energy to pose a threat, which is why people farm(ed) the ladder with it. You don't see 5 dervishes (usually) but you do see SF's like mad. I wonder why?
Also there are many builds that can kill the archers quickly at VoD so what?
Also since when does a auto attack dervish without any skills as flinn has said does more damage to archers at VoD than a SF with all his energy?
Btw B-surge works on dervishes too... and they usually trigger the AoE effect of b-surge as well. Meaning unless you are Avatar of meladuru then guess what, you're still blinded.
And thanks for taking literally what was just being used as an example. I mearly was comparing uses of a hammer vs. scythe due to the similar swing times. "My build" was only trying to provide an example nothing more.
Also I never said that dervishes weren't good. They are a strong class that can bring a lot to the table, but are they overpowered? No. They still are shutdown by warrior hate and are more fragile than warriors in the aspect of armor and complete energy dependence. Do I like bringing them in GvG? Of course I do since they can add alot to a team, but so can any other class with the right builds.
Anyway its not worth it to continue arguing. And anyway its my opinion only.

Ok then I'll try to get the last word in although it's hard to type with all the laughing. Why is a bsurge not the same on a war as a dervish? Because, and again this is assuming its not a melandru's dervish because if I had to point out why a bsurge doesnt work on them... anyhow, a dervish runs on energy, a hammer war adren. As such a dervish just autoattacks for gobs of damage anyhow and waits for a draw to go a maim someone since the guns are always loaded. Furthermore, if grenth is out you HAVE to keep him blinded every second because of this fact: give him 5 secs of not being blinded and someone will need to be infused 3 times or die. A war needs to hit things to get adren... blinds prevents this.. blinding just before they unload adren waists all the time they spent building... I think I can stop now.

Thanks for not responding in advance, by the way. I'm only typing in hopes that the people who read these boards and assume the last guy who writes something is probably right will do so here and get correct information. With bsurge at large, a skill that is owning wars so hard that they all wish they were casters and try their hardest to do so, Dervishes are the only melee thats broken enough to break through a wall of bsurge and still tear everyone's guts out. My guild's frontline players are normally frenzy loving warrior skanks, but since they don't want to spike we run primarily dervishes so that we can pressure instead and its quite disgusting how much more effective they are at this. Many aspects of dervs are out of balance, and these issues are even more glaring in the presence of bsurge which cripples other options. Have a nice day now.

stueyman2099 · Jan 07, 2007, 09:13 AM // 09:13

it's worth mentioning that SF stacks with itself incredibly well, where if you have multiple dervishes, you get het hard by debilitating condi's, hexes, and other melee hate becuase you can't support it.

Prosthetic · Jan 07, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

There's also been a few Grenth D/Rt with extend enchantments and sight beyond sight around. Unblindable grenth dervish hurts. Does mean a loss of wild blow however, and can be spiked down easier with a bit of timing.

Thom · Jan 07, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Part of this is a play issue IMO. Kiting warriors was a good strategy, but you're better off squaring up against dervishes and call counter spikes. I would need to run the numbers, but I feel you can reduce typical dervish damage by 30% plus by avoiding the auto criticals. The scythe has only average dps without any auto crits, but when you turn tail and run the scythe is truly scary.

Would generally agree about cast times on weapon skill is silly. Skills should cycle at the weapon rate unless it is a special skill like "Quick Shot" where speed is the primary advantage.

Mr Dbest · Jan 07, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

I'm sure that someone already mentioned this previously, but I feel a nerf to the duration and a buff to the recharge is quite nice balancing (cast time is kept the same).
This is because a 20 second duration, 40 second recharge would be nice as Dervs, particularly Grenth, currently have the ability to serve their purpose presented by the Avatars and then some, as the duration is ExtremelY long considering the amount of damage it can cause in that time.
Having something like a 20 second recharge allows a Grenth Derv to activate it, say to take down a single monk after the other one is killed, while disallowing the ability to constantly enchant RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO their targets for a minute or so.
Plus, the fact that they would have to keep reapplying a 2 second cast time spell gives their target a little bit of breathing space, or the derv can decide to keep up pressure, albeit less than its potential.
Also, the sycthe line in synergy with other lines considering damage potential should be looked at.....Also, a disruption skill needs to be added to the Dervish sycthe line........

Thomas.knbk · Jan 07, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Enchantment removal - I'd have agreed with this before the last balance update, but I don't think some people realize how much the loss of Drain Enchantment changed the dynamic of enchantment removal. No longer can you consistently pull 20s or 25s recharge enchantments at no real cost. Now you'd have to use a Shatter (one of the only viable removals left), which takes the Shatter out of your offensive line and actually comes as a serious sacrifice.

True. However a great enchant removal was also introduced. It's been discussed here a few times: Avatar of Grenth.
Simply having your Grenth attack their Grenth should remove his Grasp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A User Name

@ flinn again
Umm apparently you have never run a SF. Yes it is true that is a fragile character you certainly don't need all there energy to pose a threat, which is why people farm(ed) the ladder with it. You don't see 5 dervishes (usually) but you do see SF's like mad. I wonder why?

I saw my first SF since the ladder reset today. And that was a crazy build with every elementalist you can think of in it. (think it was [EaSy] The Spearmen had a clever gimmick with the 6 dual attuned SF's, but it's certainly not such a great elite as you make it.

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 07, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

A lot of people are talking about scythe AoE as though it's something that only hits bad players or as if spreading out is all you need to do to beat dervishes. While spreading out is certainly necessary, I think that attitude does show a lack of understanding about persistent AoE.

Standard AoE spells like Fireball usually only hit one target, because the chances of two targets standing right next to each other at the exact moment fireball hits are pretty low. The only time you see single-hit AoE spells reliably damaging multiple targets is when they have huge AoEs like Deep Freeze does. Those are non-persistent AoEs, and their damage is dealt with by the fact that good players typically are spread out.

Then you have persistent AoEs, like Searing Flames and smiting. These things are always there, rather than fired occasionally, so the AoE effect is eventually going to get multiple targets through the course of normal movement. Anyone who has played against heavy smiting or SF teams knows that your team being bunched up a single time is often enough to cause a full party wipe, and that's exactly what makes persistent AoE scary. When playing a smiter, you might hit Draw Conditions hundreds of times during a match, but the only ones that really 'matter' are the ones where the enemies happen to be bunched up and you get the big damage numbers that cause a team to break.

Smiters and SF guys hit multiple targets in every match, and scythes are the same way. Persistent AoE is eventually going to get some targets through the course of normal movement, and that is often what causes teams to blow up. Granted, with the swing speed of scythes you often won't get in more than one multi-target hit before people kite away from you, except that's where 3/4s attacks come in once again.

I'm not saying that scythe AoE is an unbalanced mechanic. It's something that gives flavor to the weapon and makes it different, and I like that. However, don't go around assuming that the scythe AoE means nothing or that it will never hit more than a single character just because it has the same AoE as Fireball. The mechanics are completely different.

MaaKotka · Jan 08, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

When I said about dervishes aoe that it is balanced and that spreading out helps, I meant it makes huge difference to spread out in lowering pressure that dervishes apply. Same thing goes for sf:s except their aoe is much bigger and constantly hits more than one target but this thread wasn't about sf:s

But yes I know the feeling when playing as a monk and my party is getting multiple hits from dervishes and it isn't fun. The sound of error when trying to cast spells while they are still recharging and my energy pool to drop extremely fast and myself shouting to microfone and telling my team to spread out fast. Not fun at all

I really don't know how dervishes should be tuned little bit down. Mayby increasing their skills recharge little and making for example sight beyond sight really useful only for ritualist primary as it should be i think.

Earendil · Jan 08, 2007, 02:53 PM // 14:53

I've been advocating Melandru`s dervishes in PvP (and GvG) for a long time.

FYI - at 16 scythe, against a 60 AL at equal level, base average damage per hit (criticals included) is about 50. I posted some damage math in a thread here

Their main problem is basically Rock Paper Scissors. For a long time, melee pressure was dealt in GvG by blind bots and Cripshots. Teams would carry a blind bot and could then afford a 2 monk line (without blindbots or other condition based damage mitigation 2 monk lines are highly vulnerable). High pressure was removed from GvG by this, leaving only the various forms of coordinated adrenal spikes. Enchant based spike prevention was also common (though infuse was and is a must).

There came the blanket immunity to conditions that`s called Melandrus dervs. Shutting them down can be done but takes alternate ways: Kiting, enchants (Aegis, guardians and the like), hexes or wards. Kiting is tricky since you dont want a critical wearying stike on you and Dervishes have great running skills, including a mysticism based one. Enchants get some more hate once again with grenths. Hexes got the awesome divert hexes....as for wards...staying clustered in the current AOE meta is hardly a good thing. And besides, dropping the blind bot for one of those would make you very vulnerable to warrior pressure, which is far nastier IMO.

Melandru can also spam a 2 sec recharge eviscerate like no tomorrow followed by a faster-then-sword-on-frenzy DW trigger finishing move. Wild blow is a blessing for all dervishes..etc.

One good point I read here is that cast time attacks (mystic and eremite) have no point on a scythe (maybe on a bow but still..). They are the ones actually empowering Grenths, and helping Melandru`s spike. Scythes were supposed to be balanced by swing times. Let them stay like this.

Wild Karrde · Jan 08, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Honestly I have never lost a fight against a dervish, whether I am playing as my ranger, warrior or ritualist. A nerf is not needed at all. They are a melee class, so you can shut them down in just about every way you can shut down any other melee classes, blind, cripple..... Also since they do use enchantments alot a mesmer could easily be the dervishes worst nightmare. They are still a relatively new class, in a little while there will be alot more builds out for them and alot more builds out that can shut them down.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 08, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

A nerf is not needed at all. They are a melee class, so you can shut them down in just about every way you can shut down any other melee classes, blind, cripple.....

Dude, have you even looked at Avatar of Melandru? And Dervishes don't rely on echantments. Harrier's grasp is a nice addition to an otherwise fine build, but the Dervish can still function fine without it.

stueyman2099 · Jan 09, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

Honestly I have never lost a fight against a dervish, whether I am playing as my ranger, warrior or ritualist. A nerf is not needed at all. They are a melee class, so you can shut them down in just about every way you can shut down any other melee classes, blind, cripple..... Also since they do use enchantments alot a mesmer could easily be the dervishes worst nightmare. They are still a relatively new class, in a little while there will be alot more builds out for them and alot more builds out that can shut them down.

This is a discussion about Guild Wars, a team game. A good team will not allow blinds and cripples to stick to a dervish more than a couple seconds.

qwe4rty · Jan 09, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

This is a discussion about Guild Wars, a team game. A good team will not allow blinds and cripples to stick to a dervish more than a couple seconds.

Likewise, vs a good team, they would continually get reapplied. And, vs a good team, it's much easier for them to disrupt your spike w/ blind.

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 09, 2007, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

This is a discussion about Guild Wars, a team game. A good team will not allow blinds and cripples to stick to a dervish more than a couple seconds.

When I play a dervish, it's very rare that I call for a blind or cripple to be pulled by my team. Featherfoot Grace combined with a Clarity rune reduces blind duration to a few seconds. By the time a Draw or mend got off, the condition would have faded on its own anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

Likewise, vs a good team, they would continually get reapplied. And, vs a good team, it's much easier for them to disrupt your spike w/ blind.

Realistically, if your devoting a character exclusively to blinding a dervish, a good team is going to make an effort to disrupt your blinds during pushes so they can actually kill something. Part of any good push is disabling the enemy's defense, and just because blind spam doesn't come from a monk doesn't mean that it will be able to go off unhindered.

That's not to say Blinding Surge is useless at all. It consumes enemy resources to shut down the blind even for short periods - if their mesmer uses his diversion on your ele, that means the diversion is not on your monks and they'll have an easier time healing through the damage. However, when looking at the effectiveness of individual characters, you really have to look at what they can do unhindered. Is it really useful to examine a Blind dervish for the purpose of a balance discussion? Is what a dervish can do while blind really indicative of the profession's power as a whole? I don't think so.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 09, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

Likewise, vs a good team, they would continually get reapplied. And, vs a good team, it's much easier for them to disrupt your spike w/ blind.

As a cripshot, try spamming cripshot faster than their midliner can spam draw, it isn't fun.

The only thing that can overpower a draw through sheer spammage is possibly bsurge, which just makes this game a rock-paper-scissors of bsurge vs melandru's vs hex vs divert vs etc.

sir lockt · Jan 09, 2007, 08:46 AM // 08:46

I have to agree with Squid on the blinding. Yesterday we encountered some Dervish heavy teams and it was my job to shut them down, by trying to blind them. Avatar and [[featherfoot Grace] makes them very difficult to shutdown like that.

since I also had black-out on my bar I had to camp for a "spike" and shut it down like that... very nasty buggers.

Eventually we could outplay them by splitting...so reducing the total pressure of the Dervishes... but it wasnt easy. I think the Dervishes are not overpowered in a sense that they are to strong to beat.. but are more responsible for a change in meta from balanced adren spike, to a more pressure type of control.

Monk backlines are often not designed to hold this kind of pressure long, so we had to rely on quick kills or run like hell.. Another option to counter them is to introduce hex, melee hate (remember the water runner) but often a divert hexes is somewher hidden in a team...resulting in euh..not much of an advantage.

SL_Sky · Jan 09, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

I don't really understand the whining about the Grenth dervish...
You don't HAVE to rely on enchants for protection, you only do it becouse it's convinient...
If you're afraid of a dervish slashing you to ribbons, use warrior secondary for yourself and a paragorn for the others...